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Old version:

Easy Fighter
“The other classes are too complex. Can’t I be a Fighter and just hit stuff?”

HP: d12
BAB: 1/1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Skill Points: 4

Weapons: All
Armor: All, and Shields
Class Skills: As D&D Fighter

Code: Select all

Level       Class Ability
1           Bonus Feat, Pure Muscle, Defender, Block
2           Bonus Feat, Dash +10
3           Bonus Feat, Halting Strike
4           Bonus Feat, Dash +20
5           Bonus Feat, Super Jump
6           Bonus Feat, Dash +30
7           Bonus Feat, Tower Leap
8           Bonus Feat, Tough It Out
9           Bonus Feat, City Leap
10          Bonus Feat, Slay 
 

Class Abilities

Bonus Feat: Gain one Fighter feat. You do not need to meet prerequisites for the feat other than level, Base Attack Bonus, or skill ranks.
• You may instead use a bonus feat to increase a physical ability score by 2 points rather than acquire a feat.

Pure Muscle: Add Easy Fighter levels to Strength and every even Easy Fighter level to their Constitution score.

Defender: Whenever an ally within melee reach is targeted or affected by an area attack (after the attack roll is made or after the save is failed), you may make a 5 foot step into their space or place yourself between the attacker and your ally. You are hit by the attack instead.

Block: As an Immediate action in response to you or an ally within melee reach being hit with a direct attack, and after the attack roll is made, you may make an opposed attack roll. If the result is at least as high as the attacker’s, the attack is countered.

Dash: Add this number to your movement speed.

Halting Strike: Whenever you hit an opponent, all of their movement stops for the round and can’t make Move actions until the end of the round.

Super Jump: As a Move action you may fly as far as your movement speed, then after the movement is completed you begin to fall unless you are standing on a solid surface.

Tower Leap: As Super Jump but your movement is multiplied by 10.

Tough It Out: You gain a Fortitude save against anything that would cause you harm, once each round. Use the save DC or attack roll of the attack or effect; if you match it or roll higher than it, even if normally affected by the attack automatically, you are immune to it for that round.
After this defense is used successfully it can’t be used in the next round.

City Leap: As Super Jump but your movement is multiplied by 100.

Slay: Once each round you may force a target hit by one of your attacks to make a Fortitude save against either your attack roll or the amount of damage you dealt. If they fail, they die.

Latest Version:

Easy Fighter
“The other classes are too complex. Can’t I be a Fighter and just hit stuff?”

HP: d12
BAB: 1/1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Skill Points: 4

Weapons: All
Armor: All, and Shields
Class Skills: As D&D Fighter

Class Abilities

Bonus Feat: Gain one Fighter feat. You do not need to meet prerequisites for the feat other than level, Base Attack Bonus, or skill ranks.
• You may instead use a bonus feat to increase a physical ability score by 1 point rather than acquire a feat.

Pure Muscle: Add Easy Fighter levels to Strength and every even Easy Fighter level to their Constitution score.

Defender: Whenever an ally within melee reach is targeted or affected by an area attack (after the attack roll is made or after the save is failed), you may make a 5 foot step into their space or place yourself between the attacker and your ally. You are hit by the attack instead.

Block: As an Immediate action in response to you or an ally within melee reach being hit with a direct attack, and after the attack roll is made, you may make an opposed attack roll. If the result is at least as high as the attacker’s, the attack is countered.

Dash: Add this number to your movement speed.

Halting Strike: Whenever you hit an opponent, all of their movement stops for the round and can’t make Move actions until the end of the round.

Super Jump: As a Move action you may fly as far as your movement speed, then after the movement is completed you begin to fall unless you are standing on a solid surface. Your flight maneuverability is Clumsy and you can generally only move in a straight line.

Tower Leap: As Super Jump but your movement is doubled.

Tough It Out: You gain a Fortitude save against anything that would cause you harm, once each round. Use the save DC or attack roll of the attack or effect; if you match it or roll higher than it, even if normally affected by the attack automatically, you are immune to it for that round.
After this defense is used successfully it can’t be used for one minute.

City Leap: As Super Jump but your movement is multiplied by 5.

Slay: Once each minute you may force a target at half or less HP hit by one of your attacks to make a Fortitude save against 10 + ½ your level + Strength bonus. If they fail, they die.

Hmmm...

Hobgoblin Easy Fighter 10. Start with 20 Con (+5), increase by 2 every level instead of feats and add 2 more for levels 4 and 8, and 10 more because of Pure Muscle. +18 Con total.

9*(12/2) + 12 + 10*18 = 236. Hilarious. He also comes with a Fort Save of +24, pre-modified, and can force any attack to go through said Fort Save or else he is immune to it... I think he can pretty much ignore most opponents outright.

Same problems can happen with AC from pumping Dex, or Strength with Slay. Tough It Out and Slay are retardedly good. The fiendish brute with good BAB should be your point of balance at wizard-level.

...You Lost Me wrote: 9*(12/2) + 12 + 10*18 = 236. Hilarious. He also comes with a Fort Save of +24, pre-modified, and can force any attack to go through said Fort Save or else he is immune to it... I think he can pretty much ignore most opponents outright.

Same problems can happen with AC from pumping Dex, or Strength with Slay. Tough It Out and Slay are retardedly good. The fiendish brute with good BAB should be your point of balance at wizard-level.

Do you think that's too much HP?

And perhaps the Exalted style defense was a bit too much. Maybe it should fatigue them or apply some kind of self-inflicted debuff, or have an every-other-round recharge.

I'll leave Slay where it is. It's bad enough that people want to play melee warriors against Clerics with Slay Living and Wizards with whole books full of death spells.

As for Fiendish Brute, I find it woefully underpowered. It's listed as being balanced with the Wizard. IMO more like balanced with Warblade, maybe worse.

EDIT: I cut the Pure Muscle CON bonus to half, and put Tough It Out on an every other round recharge.

looks good, i would just change the name to Non-magic Anime Fighter, or non-magic Superhero. reason being the absurd jump and slay feats.

also you are missing one of the key points of the argument that inspires this class write-up. you need a feat to "cleave a mountain in half" from a distance or in contact with it.

Slay, like all abilities like it given to Warriors is stupid.

Level 13 Wizards get to cast Stun Ray, that is not an excuse to give infinite no save stuns to every fighter.

Clerics get to cast SLay Living, that is no reason to give infinite save or dies to fighters, that also come out as fast as a Cleric could cast them while provoking two AoOs from the enemy, and the fighter also gets to do his normal amount of damage from a full attack on a failed save.

Quite apart from the reasons that all Slay abilities given to fighters are always stupid, yours is especially stupid because it has a stupid DC. I mean, right off the fucking bat, a Cleric is casting, if we assume his highest level spell slot, 10+1/2 level + Wisdom mod.

This Fighter's attack roll is 1d20 (So already sort of the ten part, only every time it's higher than ten, and you can pick the damage if it's lower than ten.) + Actual level, not half, so now he's up 5 on the DC + Str, which is a more everything stat than Wisdom. Also, it's an attack roll, so being invisible adds +2, Haste adds +2, Heroism adds +2, Enlarge Person adds 2, and having a Magic weapon or some feats, cause you know, at level 10 you have fourteen of those, adds some, or just adds +1 to your attack roll and 1.5 to your damage so you can break the RNG on either type of save.

EDIT: I read a whole third class feature and realized you also get an untyped +10 to Str, so now your attack roll is +15-higher unbuffed than the Slay Living DC.

And of course, damage is monkey fuck retarded, because damage numbers at level 10 get to be about 40-50 for people who don't try to buff it that hard.

So would I rather have Slay Living four times a day, or Slay Living as a free action that doesn't get in the way of my attacking and has at least +10 to the DC, but probably more, infinite times a day. Yeah, the second one.

Also, The Leap series is stupid. A) You didn't specify a Fly maneuverability. B) After you do that, everything But Super Leap is retarded. A fly speed of 600 is retarded. It's not retarded because Fighters shouldn't fly, I'm fine with giving them actual motherfucking flight from sweating downward with so much force that they stay in the air. It's stupid because a move speed of 600 feet is retarded. Now, 6000 feet, that's even dumber.

6000 feet is a lot of feet. It does not fit in the game world in any way for a Fighter to be moving 6000ft a round. He becomes true kite Master, and literally can never be kited by anyone.

Of course, he could move 1200ft or 12000ft, and that's even more retarded, but the Fighter using the strategy of:

Jump 6000ft from their cave entrance, seeing every creature along the path, and landing next to the first one, then attacking it for Slay at DC other people's +15. Then next turn, attack again, then jump 5000ft away, and therefore only get attacked once per two turns because you are literally jumping 500ft in a direction, and can round like eight corners, then jump back next round.

Is pretty fucking stupid.

Here's the thing, it is really Easy to play a class that breaks the RNG in every respect.

That's also fucking terrible class design. The hard part is making a class that doesn't break the RNG.

shadzar wrote: also you are missing one of the key points of the argument that inspires this class write-up. you need a feat to "cleave a mountain in half" from a distance or in contact with it.

I did this in a recent thread with maneuvers and no one liked it. I moved on.

Kaelik, now you see how I view high level Tome material. Thanks for the review.

I suppose putting a flight maneuverability of "Poor" might help the Leaps, or simply state they must be in a straight line.

Keep in mind that Slay Living can be put on an item for at-will killing, and same with Teleport, or various Tome tricks with Planar Binding outsiders to do the same for you.

I could cut down the DC to 10 + 1/2 level + STR bonus. That would help.

sigma, if you think that infinite SoDs only halfway through the level spectrum is "high level tome material", you need to stop making classes right now.

Casting slay living on a weapon is going to be way more than a level 10 character can afford, because, y'know, it's slay living and not fireball. Oh, and also, spells on weapons are things to be activated as a spell-like ability, part of a standard action (Tome0.7rev139, pp.416) so at a higher level, you're spamming a touch attack SLA and you get no attack damage.

A DC based on Str is all ready too strong, and any saves forced there should be for weaker cc effects.

Hell, since you said this is tome material, I can only assume you also mean to give a tome feat every level as well. Which we know is a terrible idea because we've seen the tome fighter. Soooo it's broken through and through.

sigma999 wrote:

shadzar wrote: also you are missing one of the key points of the argument that inspires this class write-up. you need a feat to "cleave a mountain in half" from a distance or in contact with it.

I did this in a recent thread with maneuvers and no one liked it. I moved on.

ok how about a variant on it via "cutting through the wind scar", but not needing tensaiga to do it?

[feat name]: kill 1X target creatures of at least Y levels below the fighters level. (with variant on "tiers" maybe Y should be about 4, and for a good boost to the fighter X could be either d6 or d8?)

gives the "non-linear" fighter the power to take out several with one blow, without being too powerful.. maybe for the next feat level with a named feat?

adjust X and Y based on the power curve you are trying to set for this fighter. of course for this though it isnt at a range, but within (i think this is what 3.x calls it) reach? so as to make them not have to be b2b, but more of the Gimli outside the gate of Helmsdeep. like whirlwind attack, sorta, but kills lowbies.

sigma999 wrote:Kaelik, now you see how I view high level Tome material. Thanks for the review.

I understand that you don't understand what an RNG is.

Now I have some advice for you. Stop making classes until you figure it out.

sigma999 wrote:I suppose putting a flight maneuverability of "Poor" might help the Leaps, or simply state they must be in a straight line.

No it doesn't because if you have to spend feet to turn, you can just do that. And straight line doesn't work because you want them to be able to come down from the jump, and they can't do that if all the movement has to be a straight line.

sigma999 wrote:Keep in mind that Slay Living can be put on an item for at-will killing, and same with Teleport, or various Tome tricks with Planar Binding outsiders to do the same for you.

sigma, I'm going to blow your mind. I actually know how this game works. No you can't put Slay Living into an item for at will casting. If you aren't using book of gears, it costs more than 15,000gp, 90,000gp, to be specific, and so you'd have to get non wishable currencies in excess of that amount which you will get way the fuck after level 10. Probably about level 17, maybe 15 if you are pushing it and converting all your greater than wish items into currencies to get it as soon as possible. And that's for one that never scales in DC above the level of a level 9 Caster with 15 Wisdom.

If you are using Book of Gears, then you get a weapon that can do that with a Charisma based DC as a Major magic item, so again, way the fuck after level 10.

As for the Planar Binding reference, leave that to people who actually know the rules. If you Planar Bind something, you can get it to do one service. An example of a single service is use an SLA it possesses once. So you can spend a level 6 slot, and level 3 slot, and probably a level 4 slot, to get a single casting of slay living some time in the next CL days, but you won't, because there are a lot better things to do with your time.

sigma999 wrote:I could cut down the DC to 10 + 1/2 level + STR bonus. That would help.

Well you already provided an untyped +10 to the easiest to stat to break the RNG on, but yes, it would help.

Sort of like if Hitler had only killed 3 million jews, that would have helped.

Sort of like if Hitler had only killed 3 million jews, that would have helped.

You had to go there...

...You Lost Me wrote: Hell, since you said this is tome material, I can only assume you also mean to give a tome feat every level as well. Which we know is a terrible idea because we've seen the tome fighter. Soooo it's broken through and through.

Unfortunately, the use of Tome material is a personal choice as well as one of the gaming group. I designed this as a standalone but if you want to slap in Tome feats by all means have a ball.

The rest of the multiquote review, aside from shadzar's unknown reference, will be taken lightly because it's essentially a stream of insults and that's not productive.
I suppose it was meant to be funny with Godwin's Law and at the same time convince me to stop posting but it had more of the appearance of someone putting a bag of dog shit on my front door, just a minor nuisance that will eventually be forgotten.

The entire rest of all of those posts was to show you why this class is broken. We've proven Slay is broken at level 10 multiple times, we've compared to other DCs to show why your Str bonuses are ridiculous, and I've demonstrated the whole paradigm of having 200+ HP before hitting double digits of class levels.

Those make this class bad, and you need to fix them or else the class will stay bad. You can't just ignore that and expect the class to fix itself.

...You Lost Me wrote:Those make this class bad, and you need to fix them or else the class will stay bad. You can't just ignore that and expect the class to fix itself.

Actually, he can, because that's his only method of fixing anything. He has proven again and again on this forum that he is actually incapable of taking any criticism of his classes as anything other than personal attacks.

He genuinely believes that showing how the DCs don't match up is personal attack on his character.

...You Lost Me wrote:The entire rest of all of those posts was to show you why this class is broken. We've proven Slay is broken at level 10 multiple times, we've compared to other DCs to show why your Str bonuses are ridiculous, and I've demonstrated the whole paradigm of having 200+ HP before hitting double digits of class levels.

Those make this class bad, and you need to fix them or else the class will stay bad. You can't just ignore that and expect the class to fix itself.

You yourself have presented the corrections politely but I can't say the same for everyone else present. Do you even notice the ratio of shitpost to actual criticism certain people write? It's absolutely annoying when they expect me to wade through and extract a conversationfrom a sea of piss.

I'm not rejecting certain criticisms. You, You Lost Me, are correct, I did go too far with this joke class. However when Mr. Godwin here practically vomits on a thread I'm rejecting the attitude that comes with it.

I don't normally block people but I think that's enough annoyances from Kaelik to last the rest of this year. Good luck with 2013 if I reconsider.

OK YLM I made some changes based on your suggestions.

Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier, but I used a simpler phrasing of the "Bloodied" concept in another thread and line of thought for Slay.
If hit at half or less HP and they fail the save, they die.

I toned down the stat bonus from bonus feats by half. That should cut down on RNG problems, but it should be left as an option for players that don't want the hassle of a laundry list of feats, or designing NPCs.

Tough It Out is now per minute. Essentially, once per encounter.

What exactly was the balance benchmark for this?

sigma999 wrote:
The rest of the multiquote review, aside from shadzar's unknown reference, will be taken lightly because it's essentially a stream of insults and that's not productive.

Shadzar was making reference to Inuyasha, a show and manga, where main protagonist that gets a sword that can auto kill 100 demon/minions. Some point into the series, said main character can use this ability at will, instead of what was essentially X/day.

Must've come in here a little late, since the "infinite auto death" that big of a deal? Sure basically gets it as 1/encounter ability, but I'm sure casters pulling ways to increase their resources to keep casting into point they need to rest. I like the idea behind the class, even if it was simply a joke, sounds very "John Carter of Mars" novels (latest film as well), unsure if that was the intention.

Aryxbez wrote:Must've come in here a little late, since the "infinite auto death" that big of a deal? Sure basically gets it as 1/encounter ability, but I'm sure casters pulling ways to increase their resources to keep casting into point they need to rest. I like the idea behind the class, even if it was simply a joke, sounds very "John Carter of Mars" novels (latest film as well), unsure if that was the intention.

You did come in late. So late that the ability now looks nothing like what it use to. It's not a problem when it's once per encounter and only effective on enemies at less than half HP even if the DC is still too high for a normal Save or die.

It was a problem in the old version which had the following characteristics:

1) Usable once per round, with no other limit on usage.
2) Usable on every enemy subject to fort saves, not a death effect, no HP limitation.
3) DC equal to the higher of attack roll or damage done. Since a level 10 Easy Fighter who was just kinda boring and couldn't think of feats, and has no magic items at all attacks for:

1d20+10+25 for 2d6+37 damage the DC worked out to the higher of either:
36-55
39-49

Meaning a minimum DC of 39 at level 10.

And of course, if the Fighter had spent 3 feats on it, he could be Huge instead and have more Str, and more special abilities and have a magic weapon and Str booster and instead be attacking for 1d20-2+4+10+32 for 2d6+4+48 meaning a DC of the higher of:

45-65
54-64

So on an average damage roll, even the Tarrasque, known for having an absurdly high fort save for no reason would still fail on a 20, if it weren't for 20's always succeeding.

Even an Easy Fighter would actually have to roll a 20 on his Tough it out to survive that attack even if he poured everything into Con.

And that was on every attack.

So yes, you came in late. Before he changed it, this was literally the dumbest single class ability I had ever seen ever.

Aryxbez, it is listed in the Old Version on the initial post.

Schwarzkopf wrote:What exactly was the balance benchmark for this?

DMM Cleric, maybe Warblade with a fistful of splat diving.

I probably should have mentioned that in the first place.

Also, I must repeat, Tome optional. I didn't put [Tome] in the thread title like I did with Monk of the Awakening Path, a class I'm actually serious about and would like better review.

As I suspected the Fighter always gets the most attention.

Aryxbez wrote: Must've come in here a little late, since the "infinite auto death" that big of a deal? Sure basically gets it as 1/encounter ability, but I'm sure casters pulling ways to increase their resources to keep casting into point they need to rest. I like the idea behind the class, even if it was simply a joke, sounds very "John Carter of Mars" novels (latest film as well), unsure if that was the intention.

This is after the reviews for better or for worse. My original version did break RNG and could kill anything it hit once per round.

I've listed both versions in the OP.

FWIW, I prefer my fighter, although I think after fixing the ridiculously stupid auto-death ability, this class isn't totally unworkable.

How does it fare in the Same Game Test?

virgil wrote:How does it fare in the Same Game Test?

Probably badly. I didn't grant earlier tamer versions of Slay (such as added damage) at lower levels, so you'd have to rely on Pure Muscle and feat selection to scale damage in ways that will bypass alignment DR or exotic defenses.
Mobility-wise, I'd hope it does well.

EDIT: I went and dug up a sample, which will be slightly easier to guess due to there being only 10 levels of this class (after which the effectiveness expires so it doesn't matter anyway)

A Level 5 Same Game Test

A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
A Basilisk in its desert burrow.
A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
A Phase Spider anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.
A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.

A Level 10 Same Game Test

A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer.
6 Trolls.
12 Shadows.

EDIT 2: At a glance, all I can say is; if Easy Fighter is outnumbered, accosted by ranged attackers/flyers and not packing a bow, or assaulted by Will save effects, it will fail.
It fairs slightly better than normal Fighters but not by much.